dazautomatics
regular
Reged: 12/05/2006
Posts: 34
Loc: North East, England |
|
Hi all
Can anyone give advice on our dilemma? Apologies for the long
description but please bear with us.
Whilst on a 2 year passage to New Zealand, we had to abandon
our boat Sentito (a Seeker 31), 45 Miles off Finisterre on the
2nd of November. She was spotted adrift and salvaged by the
Spanish maritime authority 18 days later and we drove back to
northern Spain to take possession, until our insurers found
out that the salvage cost were considerably higher than the
insured value of the boat. At this point they decided, like
insurance company’s do, that they would abandon the boat and
get out of paying us on a technicality.
We decided to come straight back to the UK to fight the
insurance resigned to the fact that sadly we would probably
not see our boat again.After getting a good marine solicitor
we settled down for an unpleasant battle with the insurers
Today my wife received a call from the insurance company after
three weeks of complete silence explaining that they had
negotiated with the Spanish and lowered the salvage fee and
the money would clear in a few days. Then after repeating that
they were not accepting liability they dropped the bomb that
we were now on our own and needed to make arrangements to
remove Sentito from the pier ourselves as soon as possible.
Great you might think but our boat is not worth much and has
sustained a lot of damage including rudder failure. The port
she was brought into has no facilities and she could have
sustained more damaged on the unsheltered wall she has been
moored to for the last month.
It cost us about 1000 pounds to drive down to the boat last
time and we can’t afford to do it again to find the boat had
sustained more damage. We are unsure of the cost of
transportation to the UK but would estimate around 5/6K and we
have the added complication of language difficulties we had
already experienced in the far west of northern Spain. We are
concerned that any more money we need to spend on the boats
recovery would not be covered by the insurance even if we were
successful in our claim and we are at this time trying to
salvage what little money we have left. Plus it’s a week
before Christmas, which is not helping matters.
We both love the boat very much and although we won’t be ocean
sailing in Sentito after our experiences in 60 knots of wind,
we would like to repair her and see her go to a good home.
If anyone has had experience of boat repair / transport from
this part of the world or has any advice on dealing with
insurance we would love to hear. Any sensitive information
please contact me at
sentito@hotmail.co.uk
Many thanks for your time and patience
Darren & Vicki
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jonic
regular
Reged: 12/03/2002
Posts: 484
Loc:
south coast/ London, now on ci... |
|
Dear Darren and Vicki
Very sorry to hear this. I had a long battle with insurers two
years ago and may be able to give some general advice.
(probably off the forum)Who is the broker and underwriter?
--------------------
www.theyachtmoonshine.com/Yachtbrokerage.html
specialising in Dufour yachts and long distance cruisers
|
Richard_Faulkner_M44
regular
Reged: 17/03/2006
Posts: 1393
Loc: Manchester/Lagos, Algarve |
|
Darren and Vicki,
I think we heard your situation reported here. An awful thing
to happen in the first place, and to then be let down by your
insurers is catastrophic.
In 1999, ran my fathers bakery and one of the bakers got water
in the elctrics of the oven such that it was a write off. I
spoke to my solicitor before contacting the insurers and he
advised me to employ a loss assessor, (I think that's what he
was... I think the insured use assessors, and the insurers use
adjusters).
The assessors first piece of advice was that we were not to
discuss any element of the matter with the insurance company
and that we were to refer them to him. he also said that they
would get extremely angry, suggest that we didnt need an
assessor, and press us to talk to them.
he was right... you could tell that they knew they were going
to get away with nothing as soon as we referred them to the
assessor, and they didnt!
So... I am assuming that there are assessors who specialise in
marine insurance and I guess I am suggesting that you get hold
of one. Assuming they exist, (and shipowners will make sure
that there is a market), I am surprised that your lawyer hasnt
suggested this.
Having said that, my experience of many lawyers is that they
will continue to flog a dead horse for as long as their
clients will pay them.... you would never be able to say that
their advice was wrong or bad but, in practical terms, what
they were doing was a waste of time and money.... If I have
ever had a serious legal matter, i have always instructed my
lawyer to get a barristers opinion on the situation sooner,
rather than later. barristers tend to cut to the quick, tell
it like it is, and give you the options.
Pointing you at an assessor or a barrister probably loses you
as a client fairly quickly... I hope I'm wrong here.
Did your policy say anything about times of the year when you
couldnt cross Biscay, or how many crew had to be on board?
I would be interested to know what the technicality was that
they said meant they didnt have to pay you when they decided
to abandon the boat in Spain.
I would also be interested to know why they had continued to
negotiate with the Spanish over the salvage.... as I see it,
they had nothing to gain - they had abandoned the boat and
were paying you nothing, so no cost to them.
Negotiating the salvage fees down and agreeing to pay them
will cost them money.... so they must have been forced into
this situation for some reason.
and... having admitted liability for the salvage, how can they
not admit liability for sorting the boat out for you.... I
would have thought that they are liable for all or nothing.
I think we would all be interested to know who the insurers
are as i want to know that, in a similar situation, my
insurance company arent going to refuse to cough up.
That's my 2 pennorth.. get an assessor and, if appropriate, a
barristers opinion.
Cheers
Richard
--------------------
Rogue - Moody 44
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bajansailor
regular
Reged: 27/12/2004
Posts: 267
Loc: Barbados (East coast) |
|
That is very sound (IMHO) advice Richard!
I have had some experience here of dealing with insurance
companies around the world re submitting marine cargo claims,
and although there are some exemplary companies who are very
fair and reasonable, there does appear to be many others who
will try to find any loophole or technicality to avoid paying
out on the claim.
Sentitos, it does sound like you have a good case in your
favour, especially if you follow Richard's advice.
Good luck!
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Richard_Faulkner_M44
regular
Reged: 17/03/2006
Posts: 1393
Loc: Manchester/Lagos, Algarve |
|
martin,
How would they go about finding an assessor, (if I am using
the right term)? I'm sure I did a search for one a while ag
and could find one, (cant recall why I was looking.
--------------------
Rogue - Moody 44
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bajansailor
regular
Reged: 27/12/2004
Posts: 267
Loc: Barbados (East coast) |
|
Hello Richard - I just did a google, and
found the info below on an Insurance Assessor's website. The
first section is a useful description of assessors and
adjusters, while also pointing out their differences.
XXXXXX are Insurance Loss Assessors with over fifteen years
experience working on behalf of the general public. XXXXXX are
not loss adjusters who protect the Insurance company's
interests; instead we represent the policyholder.
Without XXXXXX you are left at the mercy of the Insurance Loss
Adjusters. Loss Adjusters are appointed to protect the
insurance company's interests, and minimise the amount paid on
the insurance claim. Their fee is paid by the insurance
company and they report to them. Typically, a loss adjuster
will aim to reduce the claim by 20%. Whereas an Assessor is
committed to maximising the settlement due to the Claimant.
Here is a website for one Assessor I found on a random search
-
http://www.assistedclaims.co.uk/
Please note that I have no connection with these folk
whatsoever.
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Richard_Faulkner_M44
regular
Reged: 17/03/2006
Posts: 1393
Loc: Manchester/Lagos, Algarve |
|
Brilliant.... I must be useless at
Googling.
Hopefully Darren and Vicki will wake up feeling a bit more
positive, and able to take a bit of control back.
--------------------
Rogue - Moody 44
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ironmaiden
regular
Reged: 19/08/2005
Posts: 43
|
|
Hi Darren & Vicky
It's sad to hear that you have to go through all this cr*p.
When you take out insurance you do it for the sole reason to
protect yourself should the unfortunate happen, as it did in
your case. this just goes to enforce my opinion that EVERY
insurance company is little more then approved and licesned
swindlers.
You put your faith and hard earned cash into them only to be
totaly and utterly let down, I not only hope that you win your
case against them but from this episode they loose as much
business as possible, if we the puplic were to con monies from
people on this scale we would be prosecuted and imprisoned.
Good luck and I wish you all the best.
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Smiffy100
regular
Reged: 24/09/2006
Posts: 787
|
|
I dunno if I go along with
"EVERY".................but some it seems almost certainly.
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Hitrapia
regular
Reged: 20/03/2002
Posts: 164
Loc: Malta for the winter |
|
I'm really sorry to hear your news - after
your trials in Biscay you shouldn't have to deal with this
bull***t.
May I ask who the broker/insurer is - I think a number of
people on this forum would like to know?
best wishes
Wayne
--------------------
SV
Hitrapia - Warrior 35
|
Allan
regular
Reged: 17/03/2004
Posts: 155
Loc: Bristol |
|
I can't believe that I have started typing
on here defending insurance companies! Smiffy I agree, I have
heard lots companies trying to get out of paying loads of
claims but not all. I recently suffered a robbery at home and
the insurance company (Tesco) have been great! They have
sorted things out without quibbling and have been helpfull and
polite.
Allan
PS. I have named Tesco because of their actions, I would also
have named them if they had been bad. Let's name and shame
these bad businesses!
--------------------
My Etap22i is up for sale.
|
Guapa
regular
Reged: 24/09/2003
Posts: 2050
Loc: Me: St
Albans - Guapa: Levingt... |
|
Very sorry to hear about your loss. There,
but for the Grace of God...
However, you can't get emotional about this now.
Boat's a write-off - get the insured value of the insurance
and walk away.
Everything else will turn out to be throwing good money after
bad. Time to let go.
--------------------
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing ... Avoiding
danger is no safer in the long run than exposure to it.
Helen Keller (1880-1968)
|
Smiffy100
regular
Reged: 24/09/2006
Posts: 787
|
|
By all means name and shame, but with
substantiated facts, and while we are at it, why not give pats
on the back to gooduns?...........................
|
dazautomatics
regular
Reged: 12/05/2006
Posts: 34
Loc: North East, England |
|
Thank you all for taking time to post on
our dilemma, to answer your questions we had an exclusion on
the policy that we had to be across Biscay on the 1st of
November and to all intents and purposes we were.
Having turned away from La Coruna in force 8/9 winds when in
sight of land as the conditions were deteriorating rapidly as
we were entering shallow water, the seas were breaking
violently. We made a decision to head for Bayona and
unfortunately had to abandon to the boat 18 hours later 45
miles to sea of cape Finisterre after sustaining damage, hove
to beam on to 60kn winds and sea that I can only describe as
occasionally twice the height of the mast.
We contacted our insurance company as soon as we were dropped
off in La Coruna by the search and rescue and they arranged a
loss adjuster to come the hotel to take a statement.
Up till the boat being salvaged 18 days later the insurance
company gave no indications of breach of warranty and were
expected to pay.
It was only when the large salvage fee was mentioned that
things changed.
After talking to the solicitor last night that we learnt that
it is common practice for the insurance to settle things like
salvage or impounding of a boat without prejudice as if they
are found liable later they would incur further costs.
We can’t disclose the insurance company at this moment as this
could damage our claim but I understand were you guys are
coming from and we are documenting the event to allow us to
respond to the yachting press with a story to allow this
company to be seen for all they are. They have already
approached us with a view to printing our experience.
Our solicitor will not accept instruction from us and has
recommended we use the legal cover on our house insurance, as
the funds available are considerably higher than the value of
the boat. In her opinion this can change the decision of the
insurance company in as little as a few letters. As of yet the
house insurance haven’t come back with a decision and we have
to wait regardless of pressure for them to take on the case.
Please keep posting with any help and advice you may have.
Many thanks for the support
Darren & Vicki
|
chrisc
regular
Reged: 11/07/2001
Posts: 629
Loc: SWEDEN
and working again UGH..... |
|
Is there no one on this Forum suituated in
the n of spain who could go and look and see what condition
the boat is in?
|
dazautomatics
regular
Reged: 12/05/2006
Posts: 34
Loc: North East, England |
|
If there is Chris, that would help. When we
last saw the boat she had suffered a lot of damage to the
stantions, pulpit and pushpit from the salvage on top of the
damage from the storm.
As far as we are aware she is still moored against the
commercial pier in Cee (a small village next to Corcubion)
The link I have added to Multimap shows the pier in the bottom
righthand corner below the AC-550 sign.
Map link
It would be great if we could find out if any more damage has
been done to the boat. Whilst we were there the boat was
surging approx 20 feet against a sheer muscle incrusted pier
wall.
|
jonic
regular
Reged: 12/03/2002
Posts: 484
Loc:
south coast/ London, now on ci... |
|
Have sent you a PM.
If you need a good surveyor to counter the damage report, I
can highly recommend Jim Pritchard. He did mine and it saved
me a fortune.
--------------------
www.theyachtmoonshine.com/Yachtbrokerage.html
specialising in Dufour yachts and long distance cruisers
|
Richard_Faulkner_M44
regular
Reged: 17/03/2006
Posts: 1393
Loc: Manchester/Lagos, Algarve |
|
Quote:
we had an exclusion on the policy that we had to be across
Biscay on the 1st of November and to all intents and
purposes we were.
Having turned away from La Coruna in force 8/9 winds when in
sight of land as the conditions were deteriorating rapidly
as we were entering shallow water, the seas were breaking
violently.
Our solicitor will not accept instruction from us and has
recommended we use the legal cover on our house insurance,
as the funds available are considerably higher than the
value of the boat. In her opinion this can change the
decision of the insurance company in as little as a few
letters.
This begs the question.... at what point are we "across
Biscay". e.g. if you had chosen to winter in Coruna, or
wherever, and went out for a daysail to the point where you
made your decision, would we be "across Biscay"?
I would imagine there will be a precedent for this somewhere,
and it may be worth searching it out... independently of the
lawyer, (maybe with the help of an assessor specialising in
marine insurance).
Presumably the solicitor wont accept instructions because
you/she are not sure whether you can pay their bill, (whatever
it is). She seems to be suggesting that the insurance company
are relying on this and, as soon as you have the funds to
proceed, the insurance company would back down and pay up...
in the knowledge that the law will find in your favour.
The following could be a risky strategy, but my thought are
that it doesnt matter whether the funds come from your house
insurance, or a friendly sponsor.
In which case, you could look at refinancing the house to pay
the legal charges.... perhaps with the intention of only
proceeding as far as the "few letters"... if you see what I
mean.
If anything can be of a help to you, it seems like the
accepted insurance definition of "across Biscay" would be a
good start.
Cheers
Richard
--------------------
Rogue - Moody 44
|
chrisc
regular
Reged: 11/07/2001
Posts: 629
Loc: SWEDEN
and working again UGH..... |
|
Put a message on the Reader to reader forum
and ask for anyone near that port (what port is it?)You get a
lot more readers there.(and hopefully some help)
|
TigaWave
regular
Reged: 17/12/2004
Posts: 1043
Loc: Buckland Monachorum |
|
I agree with Richard,
First step is to find out what was their definition to you
before you left as to "across Biscay"
I had an Insurance claim turned down under similar
circumstances in that I had not informed the insurance company
of my safe arrival in Europe.
I had informed them of arrival in The Azores, but they didn't
consider this Europe. I was not insured after an incident in
the North of Spain a few weeks later, despite the fact that I
was still paying increased premiums (Direct debit) having had
insurance for the Caribbean.
They claimed that to start the European cover I had to inform
them of my safe arrival in a European port.
I wish you luck, but feel that they will have required your
arrival in a port and a statement of yacht condition at that
time to move on to the next leg, which would be covered, ie
Coastal Europe.
--------------------
http://www.h4marine.com/
|
Swagman
regular
Reged: 01/02/2005
Posts: 883
Loc:
Self - Hampshire UK: Yacht - T... |
|
Echo everyones sentiments. Have reposted a
message on Cruiser Log and Cruisers Forum also asking is
anyone is close to Cee and prepared to pop along and give you
feedback. Have posted your email address and trust that's OK.
JOHN
--------------------
Boring cruising blog at
www.yotblog.com/Swagman
|
dazautomatics
regular
Reged: 12/05/2006
Posts: 34
Loc: North East, England |
|
Thanks for the repsonse all
The insurance company have so far declined to cover us as they
have stipulated that there cover excluded biscay crossings
between 1st November and 31st March. Their argument is that we
did not touch land in La Coruna and technically were still on
passage through Biscay.
Thanks for the response. So far we have a contact in Vigo who
may be able to do repairs etc and I have head from a nice chap
who has offered to drive down from Coruna to check the boat
for further damage.
We are interested in anyone else who has dealt with poor
insurers and would be very interested to here how you dealt
with them?
Once again thanks for the interest and I will, as soon as I
get legal advice, be naming and shaming the parties involved.
Our hope it to keep the interest in the post up so we have a
significant number of people understanding the pitfalls of
marine insurance and that glossy advertisements in the
yachting press do not amount to good service. Hopefully we can
prevent a few people experiencing our nightmare.
Darren & Vicki
|
absit_omen
regular
Reged: 28/01/2004
Posts: 595
Loc:
Portugal & Med. Wintering in L... |
|
My heart really goes out to you. It is,
indeed, a nightmare.
However, I reget that I think you are on to a loser. There is
really nothing technical about what the insurers are saying.
So far, the facts seem to be that the icident occurred beyond
their deadline and you were still on passage. They drew the
line and you were very, very unfortunate to have been forced
into crossing it.
I would be amazed if they back down - whatever pressure you
put on them. I think you need some expert legal advice.
Sorry.
|
Richard_Faulkner_M44
regular
Reged: 17/03/2006
Posts: 1393
Loc: Manchester/Lagos, Algarve |
|
I guess the hope is that one of 2 things
could be decided:
1) once you are within a certain distance of a Port on the
destination side of Biscay, you are deemed to have "crossed".
2) I am assuming that it would be accepted that they would
have arrived in Coruna by the deadline, had they carried on...
but by carrying on they would have endangered the vessel and
their lives, so the decision to divert, and therefore not
cross Biscay by the deadline, would be deemed to be prudent
under the circumstances, and covered by some form of Force
Majeure in the insureds' favour...... notwithstanding that the
vessel was subsequently lost.
Again, I cant believe that this sort of situation hasnt arisen
previously, and been tested in the Courts. Barring the rule
which says that the facts are somewhat different to the
precedents, (is it res ipsa loquitar? was it a case with a
yellow Rolls Royce? cant remember), there should be some cases
which provide an answer, one way or another.
I was half expecting there to be one, or more, legal bods here
who might be able to trawl through some case searching
database, and find something... we'll see.
--------------------
Rogue - Moody 44
|
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